Wings and such

Anything aero-related (wings, under-trays) etc. Separate from "Wind Management", which deals with protection from wind buffeting.
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Re: Wings and such

Postby Def » 25 Jan 2017, 05:09

I'm thinking simpler, like late 80's/early 90's F1:

Image


I do like the look of that longer secondary element, but I'm not sure how it'd package in a Midlana. I think I'd rather have a full width wing with a proper endplate/footplate. Then a ~13" chord dual element wing will probably provide plenty of downforce and be pretty inexpensive and easy to fabricate.

I figure some 1" x 0.125" wall aluminum tube, welded here and there inside the circular groove would be plenty to support the wing.

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Re: Wings and such

Postby Midlana1 » 25 Jan 2017, 06:11

My brother keeps pushing for a centrally-mounted wing assembly (single or dual element), sort of like a sprint car but further forward near the CG. The good points are that balance can be adjusted by moving it fore and aft, there's only one wing assembly to mess with as far as set up goes, and it's probably cheaper. The bad? It looks odd, and in this particular example, the lack of front-end support on those tubes worry me. Looks aside, this particular car is quite fearsome, 500+hp and driving by a very skilled driver, I think it took first place.

Regarding CG, mine is fairly far back so it might not have to be as cantilevered as it's shown on this front-engine car. Now that I think about it, this may not be appropriate on my car (now) because of the composite ductwork that's being added to the roof. It could still be added but would need some other type of mount.

Image

Here's another Stalker with a more tradition setup. The size of that front wing and its supports are worrisome but I digress.
Image

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Re: Wings and such

Postby Def » 25 Jan 2017, 08:35

I don't think a centrally mounted wing will make much downforce, and adjusting balance would be a pretty major change vs. two bolts and adjusting a flap on one end. I'd always tweaked rear wing angle more often than anything else once it's available. I've found I rarely fiddle with shocks much (once they're set, they're kinda set for your specific spring/chassis/damper), but the wing is quick and easy to make a huge change to balance.

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Re: Wings and such

Postby Midlana1 » 25 Jan 2017, 09:18

Checked out the flyingfoam site. Well nuts, that seems to be the best way to get the size, shape, and lengths I want. The composite fabrication shouldn't be too hard since there aren't any compound bends. Vacuum bagging should work great though it's a new thing for me.

Assuming I do a traditional front and rear wing, the placement would probably be very similar to the picture above, though the rear wing as shown looks terribly-placed for airflow, needs to be a lot higher. Maybe it's just for looks, yo.

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Re: Wings and such

Postby Def » 25 Jan 2017, 09:29

My only concern with the foam wings is bonding the aluminum supports through the foam to the outer skin so things don't rotate around. Although if you suspend the wing from the outer composite skin I suppose it wouldn't matter.

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Re: Wings and such

Postby Midlana1 » 25 Jan 2017, 09:32

Agree that mounting is the biggest issue, how to attach to it so it's both rigidly mounted yet adjustable. The aluminum extrusion is SO much easier; a shame that sizes are so limited.

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Re: Wings and such

Postby rennkafer » 25 Jan 2017, 11:08

Def wrote:I'm thinking simpler, like late 80's/early 90's F1:

Image


I do like the look of that longer secondary element, but I'm not sure how it'd package in a Midlana. I think I'd rather have a full width wing with a proper endplate/footplate. Then a ~13" chord dual element wing will probably provide plenty of downforce and be pretty inexpensive and easy to fabricate.

I figure some 1" x 0.125" wall aluminum tube, welded here and there inside the circular groove would be plenty to support the wing.


That's what I meant by a cruder version, perhaps simpler would have been a better word. I used that example because of how it's supported, in that if you close in the sides/bottom you've basically got a section similar to a Midlana nose cone.
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Re: Wings and such

Postby Midlana1 » 19 Dec 2017, 10:31

A year has gone by and no wings, though there was aero progress in the form of the intercooler inlet ductwork. As mentioned on the website, adding it obviously cut down intercooler heating, but it also unexpectedly cut down on passenger compartment wind turbulence by about half. Pretty sure it also cut down drag as well, keeping some of the wind from whipping around the tubing. As an aside, at bottom is a color picture of the simulated airflow around a generic Seven. Look how much wind whips around the sides of the windscreen.

Anyway, with the ductwork done, reading through this thread again got me back up to speed. My brother's local contact who could have made us foam wing cores in any size unfortunately dropped off the map. While I'm sure there are other vendors out there, the convenience/shipping advantage is now gone. At the moment I like the compromise of the extruded aluminum wings for the front element, and as the second element at the back, with a composite-coated foam core as the main element.

Image

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Re: Wings and such

Postby Midlana1 » 08 Jan 2018, 07:05

With the intercooler ducting finished, this thread is bubbling back up. At the moment I don't feel motivated to do a large-chord rear wing and am instead considering settling for a double element at the rear using the above extrusions. At the front would be a single element, full width in both cases. I contacted the vendor of the aluminum wing extrusions again for a new quote, and asked whether shipping half as many parts which are twice as long is more or less expensive than shipping twice the number of parts half as long. Pretty sure I know the answer.

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Re: Wings and such

Postby Midlana1 » 23 Jan 2018, 11:30

Poking around the Interwebz, http://www.goodaero.com popped up. I suspect a wing from them is going to be pretty expensive, and I still haven't decided how much faster I "need" to go. For what it's worth, pretty much nobody uses wings at trackday events, never mind that such events mean nothing, there is no national points standing, and there are no year-end banquets - it's just for the enjoyment of getting out on track.

That said, the biggest reason for maybe adding a wing isn't for any of the above, it's more for self-preservation, getting additional traction at the rear of the car so I don't have another big off like I did at Willow Springs in Turn 9. Then again, adding a wing means you can now go that much faster, which brings the driver and the car to a higher, more precarious threshold, one that varies depending upon wind speed, direction, and temperature. Then there's the dark thought of "what happens if the wing breaks while doing 130 around Turn 1 at Autoclub speedway?" The car would instantly whip around and may or may not hit the wall with the newfound extra speed. The point being, without a wing there's less going on and maybe more predictable; with a wing, now you're effectively placing your life in the hands of a varying element. So there's that. I haven't firmly decided what to do - even as I send off a request for pricing.

Reading through the above site I ran across something that reminded me of how I explained what driving a mid-engine car is like on-track. The car has more ability, but whether the driver is capable of exploiting it is another thing. Below, he talks about how much faster a car with a wing will go on-track.

If you're like most drivers, shortly after the installation of an effective wing and splitter you'll find yourself going noticeably faster than before. It may take a bit of initial tuning to get the balance right but suddenly the turns are easier and the braking is more stable.

But then you hit a plateau. And, while you are definitely faster, maybe you're not as much faster as you'd expected to be. As you begin to acclimate to this new speed, you'll realize that you're leaving extra room at the exits of the turns and that even though you're going a little deeper at the ends of the straights, you're not having to brake as hard as you used to.

That's the point where you need to do the re-calibration.

Aerodynamics silently extend the capabilities of your car. You, as the driver, will need to reassess your braking points, turn-in speeds and general style of driving to take the most advantage of these new and extended capabilities. You will need to catch up to the car because, at least for most people, after adding aero the car is ready to go faster than the driver is...at least at first.

So, what do you do about that? You put in some seat time. You do some laps. And you pay attention to where you could be going faster. Then, gradually, systematically, you work up to more and more speed. It takes some time to get the most out of aerodynamics, but make no mistake about it: Aero makes you faster. Faster from the day you bolt it on and even faster than that once you've had a chance to properly readjust your braking points and turn-in speeds.

Aerodynamics makes you faster. End of story.


I can't help but note that it's also a shrewd marketing maneuver because if a driver doesn't see the expected improvement, there's always, "well maybe you aren't using it to its full potential!"

So yeah, how fast do I "need" to go. Not sure.


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